I didnt bring up [Greek 00:52:36]. The second best result is Steven Luke Christie age 40s in New Hyde Park, NY in the Garden City Park neighborhood. Then Psalm 69:5 is applied non literally to Jesus and I would say Psalm 69:8 about mothers and brethren is applied non literally as well. In fact, Jesus called the Pharisees a brood of vipers, and John Bergsma has provided evidence in his book Jesus and the Dead Sea Scrolls that John belonged to an Essene sect at Qumran, whose members embraced a wider canon than the one Christie is defending. So since Jacob is referred to as the son of Isaac, and Reuben as the son of Jacob, then were they only children? Its a very beautiful open community and you get free daily podcasts and I think youd really enjoy it. This passage also contradicts the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary since Jesus mother was with Jesus brothers in verses 20 to 21, when they accused him of being out of his senses. This question comes from agoyforJesus. For example, Jesus said among those born of women none was greater than John the Baptist (Luke 7:28)and John was not a Pharisee. They point us to Jesus Christ. If you guys want, I just had a dialogue with Steve and Jeff on their channel. I think youve already said to some degree youre okay referring to Mary as the mother of God. But were not debating whether the Bible teaches the immaculate conception. Christie is currently President of Relative Goal Sports and Entertainment Management LLC., certified as a Canadian Football League contract advisor and has represented numerous musical acts in both the United States and Scotland. Okay. And the issue too, is it discusses the word ipsum as opposed to ipsa, when it says from Genesis 15, if she will bruise the heel, or his heel will be versed, however its actually worded. Christies argument continues to fall apart because it assumes Paul retained a pharisaical identity into his ministry as an apostle. They go into the glory of God. So thats another one. Thank you very much, Trent. Whenever you begin, I will click your time for-. And you, just so people are aware, arent being mean or anything by doing that. Yeah. The infallible authority of Scripture versus a fallible self-proclaimed authority of the Magisterium, which demands a faithful Catholic to believe these dogmas threatening them with excommunication for denying them, despite all of them contradicting Scripture. And also I know others whove done a lot of work on this. And Steve and I also both agreed that the universality of things like sin or death dont preclude exceptions. Peels notes in his study of the passage, Jesus is not marking beginning and end points in time but rather is contrasting Abels secret death in the wilderness with Zechariahs public death in the Temple. Just like Jesus and Mary did not have glorified bodies, Jesus did not have a glorified body during his earthly ministry, he briefly revealed it on the Mount of Transfiguration, but Jesus was not going about in his glory during his earthly ministry. You got five minutes, right? For a long time, a noted Christian apologist has publicly staked out a position that challenges the literal claims in the Book of Genesis but another apologist warns that position is a dangerous denial of truth and scripture. Steve. Theyll say that I dont believe it, but Steve might say it doesnt contradict scripture necessarily. If so, if it was an eyewitness account, why hasnt the Catholic church dogmatically declared whether or not she died first? My point in that its not the definite article that is interesting, the son of Mary. I do remember in that debate with James White five years ago, saying, Our theology should come from the Bible, not the Bible from our theology. And I was not arguing for Sola Scriptura. Thats why he says theres no distinction among people in verse 22 or in Romans 3:9 Paul says All men, both Jews and Greeks are under the power of sin.. Oh, youre on mute. So he would be referred to as the son of Joseph sometimes. I mean, to quote Jimmy Akin, when he was asked, Did all the early church fathers agree? He says, Boy, did they not all agree? So there was a lot that the early church disagreed on and there was things that they agreed on, things that Trent would agree on and theres things that they agreed on that I would actually believe in. And he told the Thessalonians who that was, but we dont know who that was, and [inaudible 01:06:25] biblical scholars have had many different answers and we dont know much the same this particular truth about whether Mary died or not. These would be children from his previous marriage, making them adoptive brothers and sisters, and as such, they would be fully Jesuss brother and sister, the full use of the word adelphos. Hebrews 11:5 states, "By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death.' And he was not found because God took him up. No, he was free from sin, but he still had a mortal human nature that could be subject to death. Thank you very much, Trent. So the Catholics authority is not balanced on a three legged stool of the Magisterium, sacred tradition, and holy Scripture, but on a one-legged stool of the Magisterium, which subjectively determines what Scripture and tradition are and how to interpret them. And then Steve, what are some objections you hear from Protestants to Catholics that you dont think are good? No, it doesnt say that but it doesnt say Joseph was bodily assumed into heaven and the same three dogmas could apply to Joseph as well, but we dont make as much why is there not a dogma those dogmas apply to Joseph. Yeah. And Im curious, you used a comment about Jesus being the son of Mary. He currently resides in Bradenton, Florida, with his wife Kelly and their four daughters. All right, Steve, whenever you begin, I Actually, just give me one second. Thank you very much, Trent. And if that is your authority, thats what makes you a Protestant. Now Steve said that Matthew 1:25, and others have said this, based off the doctoral work of Eric [Svenson 00:26:02], that the Greek construction [foreign language 00:26:06] in this verse always demands a reversal of condition. Removing this book will also remove your associated ratings, reviews, and reading sessions. Therefore Mary would not need to be assumed to heaven to keep her from seeing death if she were conceived sinless. Go to Case For Catholicism, if you want more. It is fitting, therefore its true. So some of this has been answered, but he seems like hes asking, could a Protestant accept some of these Marian dogma and remain a Protestant and someone that you would fellowship with? So it would-. Does it say that every single human being without exception has committed a sin? Mary was able to do something that Jesus didnt. And then it says, when you refer to adelphe, when you look that up, it only has two meanings. So while not common, it is used. I would argue that the dogmas are not explicitly mentioned in Scripture and they do not affect salvation. And the other concern, again, that I have is from Lumen Gentium, which is a Dogmatic Constitution of the Church, that it is binding to Catholics that even if a Roman pontiff does not speak ex cathedra, it is binding. And more importantly, thats not what we are debating. And I would say the same applies to Mary, were just having different views about what counts as divine revelation. The dogma of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary contradicts scripture in the following ways. He serves as a staff apologist for Catholic Answers, where he specializes in teaching Catholics to graciously and persuasively engage those who disagree with them. I mean, I have to really think about that. Ye, because Jesus younger half sibling was Joseph while Jesus father was God. Thats the purpose of their assumptions. I would stress that we look at what the church teaches in its magisterial teachings about Mary and her important role in salvation. The danger of submitting to this fallible authority extends to submitting to their authority of their unbiblical view of salvation of infusion of grace through the sacraments, which also contradicts Scripture, which teaches justification by imputation of grace by faith alone. We wouldnt expect it. And maybe we can go to Trent and then Steve. Stephen Christie has been at the top of the Real Estate Industry for 30 years. Look, weve got 737 people watching and only 492 likes. And for Protestants, thats the same as well, because the doctrines of the canon of Scripture, or even Sola Scriptura itself are not found explicitly in Scripture. The NAB, a Catholic translation authorized by the Confraternity of Christian Doctrine and approved by the National Conference of Catholic Bishops and the United States Catholic Conference supports this. The other thing about Jesus is, yes, Jesus did not sin, but the Bible says that he took on sin, which is different than actually inheriting sin because, again, he is conceived by the Holy Spirit, unlike Mary, who is actually conceived in sin. Steve Cable, April 18, 2022 Steve Cable explains how the apostle Peter showed himself to be a master apologist, not the bumbling, brash fisherman he used to be. As I mentioned in my book, the case for Catholicism Pauls letter to the Thessalonians, he talks about the force restraining the man of lawlessness. He became sin for us. Christian authors, however, never present a list of inspired books written before the time of Christ that matches the Protestant Old Testament canon. So theres lots of bad arguments. Trent models that approach each. Of course, that is not what we are debating today. Singleton New South Wales MRC Australia provide radiator and cooling solutions to Mining , Automotive, Industrial , Agricultural , Marine and Rail Operations. Well, not necessarily. Christie, who grew up in Oakville, Ontario, graduated from The College of William and Mary and made his NFL debut with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers in 1990. My argument is how the word adelphos is specifically is used to the New Testament Greek. So multi-part question here. And Trent and I actually talked a little bit about this, about essentials versus non-essentials of the faith. Scripture reveals Mary was a Virgin, but conflicts with her being a perpetual Virgin. Steve Hays (1959-2020) We just learned that Steve Hays has passed away in a hospice. And also Greek scholars do not rule that out. And itll be really quick. I know not man. Its the same Greek words that Mary says when she says, I know not man.. A fully independent, lay-run, 501(c)(3) ministry that receives no funding from the institutional Church, we rely entirely on the generosity of everyday people like you to keep this website going with trustworthy, fresh, and relevant content. So our listeners can go there to read that. Now the doctrine of original sin is true, but the Bible does not explicitly say that it applies to every single individual without exception. Mary also did not need to be bodily assumed to heaven like Enoch and Elijah, so they would not see death, supported by the earliest church tradition, indirectly supported by Scripture, and strongly implied by the dogma itself. Trent, whenever you begin, Ill click the timer. It doesnt explicitly state that is [inaudible 01:14:05]. Originally from Aberdeen ,now residing in Edinburgh. Sep 29, 2021. Theres no contradiction there at all. I have two chapters on it in my book, The Case for Catholicism. So the protestant reformers like Luther and Zwingly, did they believe Mary was a perpetual Virgin and were they committed to Sola scriptura? Yeah, no, no, no. The fact that this is used of Mary is very unusual. Steve Christie - Apologetics315 Debate: Do Protestants Have the Correct Old Testament Canon? But in his encyclical, [foreign language 00:20:13] Pope Pius the 12 said Mary is the new Eve who is free from all sin original or personal. Does the Bible say that Mary herself committed a personal sin or that she inherited original sin? [These verses] cannot figure as crown witnesses for the view that the Old Testament canon in Jesus days was fixed and closed (The Blood from Abel to Zachariah). And number two, when it comes to veneration, worship, honor, give someone the respect that theyre due. So before I do that, let me explain what this debate is not about. Get a Quote *The mortgage payment quiz is for estimation purposes only. Okay. Lets see, in Catholic Answers encyclopedia, it says that Andrew, the brother of Peter, is also called the son of Jonah. There might be historical errors, for example, in some magisterial documents, talking about the history of a doctrine, whether a certain saint or father believed X, Y, or Z. Infallibility has a narrow sense and only covers what is specifically defined. Sponsored by SaltLending.com and Epic.Tech. No, I can think of anything like that, but I would say that Marys status as being the God bearer would mean thered be many truths that are quite unique to her that we dont find in either old or New Testament. Give me one second look at what the church teaches in its magisterial about! 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