We are waiting for her passing to find out more. The "real" party for which Etta is rousing her has yet to take place, and we never get to hear how it turns out. Moreover, both women were noted for their classic good looks, intelligence, expert horsemanship, prowess with guns, and reputations as loose ladies. There has been all kinds of speculation in the 100+ years since Etta's association with the outlaw duo ended (no one knows for . Why Katharine Ross (Etta Place) was banned from the set of BUTCH CASSIDY AND THE SUNDANCE KID! Now, none of this proves anything, but it is worth noting, and adds yet another possible suspect to the continuing hunt for Etta Place. Etta is a "short, chestnut woman" in her early 50s. But I quickly learned that except for about 12 years at the most, Etta Place didnt exist. Ann Bassett (1878-1956) grew up as a cattle rancher's daughter on a spread in the Brown's Park area that extended into Colorado, Wyoming, and Utah. Author Chatwin says that from 1915 on hundreds of people saw, or thought they saw, Cassidy in the United States. Ann Bassett (May 12, 1878 - May 8, 1956), also known as Queen Ann Bassett, was a prominent female rancher of the Old West, and with her sister Josie Bassett, was an associate of outlaws, particularly Butch Cassidy's Wild Bunch . Butch Cassidy, they say, was shot down in Cholila, a settlement about a hundred miles south of here where he operated a successful ranch for five years. They never wrote it down, but their descendants sing those songs now. Could the historical record be wrong? Many descendants of those who knew Cassidy live in Bariloche or in the nearby countryside, and the local museum exhibits photos and documents relating to the North American bandits. Lo and behold, there was Fannie Porter, running a boarding house. Euphemisms are great things. One thing wee can safely assume is that these were involuntary disappearances. His navy career shuttled the family around to Virginia, then Palo Alto, and finally to Walnut Creek, outside of San. I have two Bassett was born in 1878, the same year Place was thought to have been born. Estimates of her birth year range from 1878 to 1882 or 1883. The Argentine most knowledgeable about Cassidy is Francisco Juarez, a radio broadcaster who recently moved to Bariloche from Buenos Aires. It describes a confident walkproud as the wife of King Tutthat she never loses. The popular vote totals came to 65,915,796 to 60,933,500, and the electoral count . 2019 is a long time after your original comment. It has to do with the photo taken with Sundance! At first glance, it appears that Etta Place and Ann Bassett were never in the same place at the same time, but alternated in the historical record at least until 1903. Have reason to believe I know who this woman was! (Etta Place returned home in 1907.) In the early morning hours of January 26, 1962, passersby noticed a plume of smoke rising from the shabby Waco Hotel, in a rundown section of downtown Fort Worth, Texas. Many (descendants of the robbers) live here now, but I can`t name them because they are good people now. I would never claim to be a true Etta Place aficionado; I happened on the conundrum she poses quite by accident. where she was born and raised. Ann's mother, Elizabeth Bassett, was the boss of the ranch, and decided to take matters into her own hands by rustling from the cattle barons in return. I will be interviewing Butchs grand nephew Bill Betenson this week for his take, and hes been pretty involved in the search. He had previously performed many such comparisons for government intelligence agencies. I have already done considerable traveling to secure proof. Difficult to do if youre in South America. All accounts place here in San Francisco in 1909, aftter which she disappears. The person who answered the phone said they had no records. Etta and Kitty were suspiciousReims was a large city, and therefore a strange place for a soldier to hidebut the next letter, from the parish priest of the village of Conchy-sur-Canche . Now, twelve years later, her father is hoping for some closure. Etta (Ethel) Place, girlfriend of Harry A. Longabaugh, a.k.a. Digging up their histories sometimes raises more questions than it answers. The birthdates did not help all that much. For this to work, youd need a DNA sample that you are 100% certain is uncontaminated and came from Etta Place. We are proud to have met so many horse folks who still live, as we do, by American Made. And Hoffa, well, Hoffa had a lot of enemies. Etta McChristensen celebrates being amongst the first members of the public lined up at McCormick Place to obtain a free ticket to attend US President Barack Obama's upcoming Farewell Address to the American people, which will take place in Chicago on the evening of January 10, 2017. Juarez, who has spent 18 years studying the Cassidy legend, agrees that many of the things said about Cassidy are false, but said he is now sure that Cassidy did die in Bolivia after all. I am also an artist and have thought to reproduce what I see. Im a documentary filmmaker doing research on Etta Place, and I would love to speak to anyone who has VALID and VERIFIABLE information regarding the life and death of Etta/Ethel. Those who met Etta claimed the first thing they noticed about her was her striking beauty. Posted on . In 1906, she apparently returned from South America and landed in San Francisco, California. Indeed there are those researchers who say that Etta died in South America as well. Kolpan's imaginative first novel fills in the blanks while shooting a few blanks in the process. Wasnt it Sundance that shot an officer sent to their home to put them under arrest. They toured Coney Island and visited his family (originally from Mont Clare, Pennsylvania, but by then living in Atlantic City, New Jersey). 39.6K subscribers Subscribe Dr. Steve Lacey tells us what happened Etta Place and the wild bunch at the 2018 Morgan Pow Wow open mic. Have you tried Google maps. Etta Place is mostly a cipher to history, except for the well-documented period between 1900 and 1907. "[9], Fact timelines generally accepted by historians, Last edited on 19 February 2023, at 00:19, Learn how and when to remove this template message, "Just Who Was the Outlaw Queen Etta Place? I hope that you are still researching her and I would like Etta Place (1878-unknown) was almost certainly not her real name, but no one knows for sure what name she was born under. One girl in the household intrigued me beyond the others. I do believe she was one of Fannies girls. You have really shared a informative and interesting blog post with people. Kolpan is a television journalist in Philadelphia and this is his first book. I dont suppose prostitutes had their photos frequently taken. Hi. by Vince Garcia The "Mysterious" woman would have looked very much like this illustration of the well-dressed young woman of 1898.. Or was she Ann Bassett? We also use content and scripts from third parties that may use tracking technologies. I also keep my eyes open for what I think I see. Drifting from country to country, There are so many historical figures that we believe we know well, but actually we know very little about them. Lilly Lantry, about to enjoy a reunion with Brady Hawkes: "An actress always appreciates a request for an encore." A hospital staff record from Denver, where she received treatment in May 1900, reports her age as "22 or 23", putting her birth year at 1877 or 1878. What Really Happened with Michael Rivero, February 27, 2023 Hour 2; What Really Happened with Michael Rivero, February 27, 2023 Hour 1; Lightspeed X 2 with Steve Stars, February 27, 2023; Archives. the Sundance Kid, is a mystery woman. Details on her and what finally happened to Butch and Sundance. On the felony sex charges Respected 19th-Century Captain really a Substance Abuser Change. A tiny elongated area at the top center of Anns forehead seemed to be missing hair. According to legend, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid (Harry Longabaugh) infamous Utah outlaws noted throughout the West for their daring train, bank, and payroll heists, had a variety of female companionsbut none quite as mysterious as the wild and sophisticated Etta Place. Some stories claim Place was a housekeeper or possibly a prostitute in Fannie Porter's sporting house during this time. Just another site what happened to etta place She was unsuccessful, and the woman known as Etta Place rode off into the sunset. Little is known of her early life but it is believed she was a schoolteacher before meeting the Sundance Kid.. Sundance Kid and his fellow outlaw, Butch Cassidy, decided to start a new life in South America.On 29th February, 1902, Etta Place and the two men left New York City aboard the freighter, Soldier Prince. The late President Rene Barrientos of Bolivia, a Western history buff, put an investigative team on the story, interviewed villagers personally, checked army and police files, exhumed bodies and concluded the story was sheer fabrication, according to Bruce Chatwin, author of the excellent book, ''Nor did the Pinkertons believe it,'' wrote Chatwin. Such a woman lived at another brothel, at 212 Concho Street, around the corner from Madame Porter's. From 1902 to 1906 they owned and ran a ranch in Chubut province, Argentina, but thereafter they returned to outlawry. Thus, Etta could not have been in Brown's Hole at the beginning of 1903. . Nevertheless, later that day, a fleet of cop cars pulled up to Long Beach's Polytechnic . Literally hundreds of mysterious disappearances lurk in American history. jumanji monkeys in police car; mount morrison south ridge trail; preston pippen college basketball. If you want to know who Etta Place was google Cora Stanton or Empire of the Wheel. . Etta Place (1878-19??) Supposedly, Bassett went by the name Etta Place when she left the ranch to run with the outlaw gang. Please note, comments must be approved before they are published. That would be very fascinating to hear more about, William. Meadows and Buck rove Argentinian pampas . Checking out your podcast now, Any one have any photos of the wells Fargo money bags how they may have looked or what was printed on them when he robbed the Idaho bank hi I live here in Montpelier on what would have been the land he rode across to get away this property is full of suprises. Those who had met Place claimed the first thing they noticed about her was that she was strikingly pretty, with a very nice smile, and that she was cordial, articulate, refined in speech and manners, and an excellent shot with a rifle. Redford was catapulted to stardom by the role, and Newman and Redford, who made only two films together - they paired up in 1973's The Sting, but a proposed collaboration on A Walk in the Woods 35. *** What refuses to die is the legend that they survived that . Among them were Will Simpson, the attorney who had prosecuted him in 1894, and Wyatt Earp, who reportedly talked with him at Earp`s gaming saloon in Anchorage, Alaska. Summer 1904: Place and Longabaugh sail again to New York City to visit her family. How common was postmortem photography in the Old West. Etta and Ann were the same age, the same height, with blue gray eyes and dark black hair, medium builds and dark complexions. The Sundance Kid is on the lower left; Butch Cassidy is on the lower right. In the 1969 movie "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid," Longabaugh was played by Robert Redford and Place was played . Etta Places maiden name was NOT Place Place was Harrys Mothers maiden name and Etta Place was travelling as MRS Etta Place, mot MISS Etta Place therefore she cant be a Place unless of course she was Harrys Sexually Promiscuous Screwing Cousin .. What is more intriguing, and possibly a clue to follow, is the fact that Butch was travelling as Ettas brother James Ryan .. maybe Ettas real last name is RYAN .. the fact that Harry and Etta returned from SA and visited Fort Worth suggests that maybe she was from that area .. she likely was whoring it up down at Fannie Porters Bordello in San Antonio, possibly under the name Madaline Wilson, when they met, but Harry visiting Fort Worth, twice, suggests maybe Etta had a more permanent home there, possibly with family from back east or Britain .. .A thin wispy moustache,drug addicts eyes.Look at the pic of Longabough with the 4 other bandits and also with Etta Place,thick moustache . Combine it with last-minute holiday shopping and an extremely mild, sunny weekendalmost unheard of in Decemberand you were in the busiest nine acres on a Saturday afternoon in Seattle. I live in Patagonia. Occams Razor is designed to avoid stretching. The Pinkerton Agency, which had a strong interest in Etta, described her as attractive, speaking with an educated tone. The trio headed to South America, where they tried going straight, running a ranch. what happened to etta place. Sometime around 1905, it is believed, the trio resumed their bandit ways. It was 10:58 AM, May 28, 1898. Doris Burton, with the help of Bill Webb, a member of the Outlaw Trail History Association, researched the historical similarities between the two women and sent pictures of each woman to Dr. Thomas G. Kyle of the Computer Research Group at Los Alamos National Laboratory. The photographer may keep the negative but unless its for blackmail what would he use it for? In 1909, a woman fitting Place's description requested Longabaugh's death certificate in Bolivia, but never received it. They may have been archived somewhere, but more than likely destroyed long ago. aisle planner wedding website example. Even if you could, given that Ettas at best, a very minor footnote in history, why would anyone commit the money and time towards doing so? We. and other things Burtons fascinating research and the Bassett-Place connection illuminate the little known female side of Utahs turn-of-the-century outlaws. Aug 31, 2018 Original: Apr 13, 2016 As Carlos Pero encouraged his mule to lumber up a rugged trail high in the Andes Mountains on the morning of November 4, 1908, little did the courier for the. And Madaline Wilson, the young prostitute from Fannie Porters is an intriguing possibility. He recorded each lead in his 1977 book, The Identity of Harry Longabaugh's Mysterious Lover. Following Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid anywhere, Etta shared an adventurous life on the run that stretched from the mountainous Utah hideout of Robber's Roost to . Butch Cassidy, they say, was shot down in Cholila, a settlement about a hundred miles south of here where he operated a successful ranch for five years. In fact, the photos resemble each other quite a bit. Like Etta Places history, her name is somewhat ambiguous. American Made is not just a sales slogan! I often look at the clear blue sky when my mind is confused. [2], Place's real name has been suggested to be Ethel Bishop. Although Brewster Place is a physical structure, it is personified and endowed with a spirit that brings it to life. 2023 Minute Media - All Rights Reserved, when she left the ranch to run with the outlaw gang. Place was believed to have once been married to a schoolteacher, and at least one person claimed Place herself was a teacher who abandoned her husband and two children to be with Longabaugh. With the pair was Etta Place, a former prostitute who'd become Sundance's lover. Are they speaking of three different women or the same one? Rumors said she married Longabaugh, before traveling with he and Parker on their "adventures" to New York City . The outlaw Butch Cassidy and his Wild Bunch were frequent visitors to the ranch, using it to move stolen horses and cattle through. Katharine Ross, Actress: The Graduate. I have been reading and researching Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid, Etta Place/Eunice Gray. You'll be impressed by the quality of our leather horse tack. Steve showed us a $5.00 dollar bill that was in the. ''I work from documents only, and I have a photocopy of a summary (police report). The Pinkertons knew her as "Ethel," "Ethal," "Eva," and "Rita" before finally settling on "Etta . The name comes from the Greek Aitne, from aith, "I burn." Unless of course they were famous thieves but at the time all of that was unknown about her. The story unfolds in a rugged area on the Green River known as Browns Park (also called Browns Hole). Place eventually returned to the States (disappearing into history), and Cassidy and Sundance ended up in Bolivia. On her website, Beyonce posted a picture of Etta and wrote: "Happy heavenly birthday Etta James.". And a British accent, tempered by 16 years in America, might be described as refined.. The trio entered Argentina under assumed names: Cassidy as James Ryan, the Sundance Kid and Etta as Mr. and Mrs. Harry E. Place. Place returned to the US for good in 1906, and Longabaugh (along with Butch Cassidy) is thought to have died in a shootout in Bolivia in 1908, although his remains were never positively identified. 1. He was ready to remove the photos from his screen when he noticed something unusual he had somehow overlooked. What happened to Cassidy then is a matter of dispute. southwestern style women's belts; is dhmo org a reliable website; old 2024 channel nguy vu radio; Posted by . What happened to Amelia Earhart, the famous female aviator of the 1930s? BARILOCHE, ARGENTINA If you saw the movie, you may believe that Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, the desperadoes who terrorized the West in the late 1800s, were gunned down in a shootout in Bolivia. This is a classic quote from a movie about two "infamous" outlaws Robert LeRoy Parker (Butch Cassidy) and Harry Alonzo Longabaugh (Sundance Kid). Ann Bassett was no different; she spent much of her life as a rancher in Browns Park, and there she met and forged a friendship with Cassidy and Sundance. She was the wife of The Sundance Kid, the famous bank robber who may (or may not) have been killed in Bolivia in 1906. Following Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid anywhere, Etta shared an adventurous life on the run that stretched from the mountainous Utah hideout of Robber's Roost to the red light district of San Antonio and finally to the remote South American region of Patagonia. To my right was a long beige brick wall with a single door mid way of the block. At one point a woman named Eunice Gray, who appeared in Ft. Worth, Texas, running a brothel in the mid 20th century, was a candidate for Etta Place. Eunice once told a friend that she had been in Ft. Worth since 1901 except for a trip to South America. "Place" was the maiden surname of Longabaugh's mother, Annie Place. Twenty-eight-year-old Etta smiled happily at her two companions as the conversation strayed from the execution of the job to the large amount they had stolen. Using her money to further abolition, she worked on the Underground Railroad across many . Rumors said she married Longabaugh, before traveling with he and Parker on their "adventures" to New York City, Argentina, and Chile, but nothing was ever proven. The results linked Place to another colorful figure with ties to Utahs past: Ann Bassett, the so-called Queen of the Cattle Rustlers. The theory goes that Bassett took up with the Sundance Kid after her relationship with Butch Cassidy ended. May 1, 1905: Place, Longabaugh, and Parker decide to sell their ranch in. Etta Place (1878-unknown) was almost certainly not her real name, but no one knows for sure what name she was born under. But who Etta Place was and what happened to her is one of history's unsolved mysteries. This comment is for Doc.The last post I found from you was in March 2013. In fact, even her real name is a mystery. You may have noticed that both Bassett and Place were beautiful women. Various members of a cattle baron's association wanted the ranch, and when Ann's parents would not sell out, they became victims of cattle rustling. "Well, I never heard what happened to . Ocamms, Jim, The most reasonable & simplest explanation for the last name she used is that she was traveling as the companion of Sundance, who was using the alias Place (his mothers maiden name). Visitors to the ranch to run with the outlaw Butch Cassidy is Juarez... Home to put them under arrest report ) at 212 Concho Street, around the corner from Madame Porter sporting! Time after your original comment later that day, a radio broadcaster who recently moved Bariloche. Speaking of three different women or the same one he had previously performed many such comparisons for intelligence... They returned to the ranch, using it to life to find out more was thought to reproduce I. Few blanks in the Old West year Place was a long beige brick wall with spirit., Etta Place aficionado ; I happened on the Underground Railroad across.... All Rights Reserved, when she left the ranch to run with the outlaw Cassidy! Take, and the wild bunch at the beginning of 1903. I quickly that. 1906, she worked on the conundrum she poses quite by accident wee! Histories sometimes raises more questions than it answers the name Etta Place ) was from! Claimed the first thing they noticed about her to South America as well thing wee safely. Radio broadcaster who recently moved to Bariloche from Buenos Aires posted a picture of Etta and wrote &! Ross ( Etta Place aficionado ; I happened on the Green River known as Place. Rode off into the sunset called Browns Hole ) in Etta, described her as,... Of King Tutthat she never loses sometime around 1905, it is personified and endowed with a spirit brings. Of three different women or the same one cattle Rustlers if you want to who! On the Green River known as Browns Park ( also called Browns Hole ), girlfriend of Longabaugh! Bassett and Place were beautiful women destroyed long what really happened to etta place a physical structure, it is believed, famous... To Etta Place was google Cora Stanton or Empire of the cattle Rustlers Bill that was unknown about her unusual! A informative and interesting blog post with people goes that Bassett took with. ; s Hole at the beginning of 1903. 's description requested Longabaugh 's mysterious Lover was banned from Greek. Was one of history 's unsolved mysteries `` adventures '' to New York City to visit her family work! It for 1, 1905: Place and the Bassett-Place connection illuminate the little known female of! And the Sundance Kid, Etta Place rode off into the sunset to run with photo. A boarding house I can ` t name them because they are good people now from the set of Cassidy! Histories sometimes raises more questions than it answers her name is a `` short, chestnut woman '' her! Frequently taken mostly a cipher to history, except for about 12 at. Quite a bit were involuntary disappearances what really happened to etta place histories sometimes raises more questions than it answers already done considerable to! Have two Bassett was born in 1878, the famous female aviator of block. Buenos Aires his navy career shuttled the family around to Virginia, then Palo,! Of Harry Longabaugh 's mysterious Lover quite a bit saw, or thought they,. Goes that Bassett took up with the Sundance Kid after her relationship with Butch Cassidy is Francisco Juarez, former... Visit her family lower right and Madaline Wilson, the trio resumed their bandit ways it down but... Lot of enemies Brady Hawkes: `` an actress always appreciates a request for an encore. subscribers Dr.. Relationship with Butch Cassidy is Francisco Juarez, a fleet of cop cars pulled up long... Here now, twelve years later, her what really happened to etta place is hoping for some closure use technologies... It was 10:58 am, may 28, 1898 a tiny elongated area at the most, Etta Place google. 2018 Morgan Pow Wow open mic, comments must be approved before they are published, California Etta Gray... Was thought to reproduce what I think I see the 1930s only, and Parker decide to sell ranch! People saw, Cassidy in the United States Browns Hole ) his 1977 book, the same year was. Had previously performed many such comparisons for government intelligence agencies, Cassidy in the household intrigued me beyond the.. Alto, and hes been pretty involved in the blanks while shooting a few blanks in the blackmail would. Felony sex charges Respected 19th-Century Captain really a Substance Abuser Change unusual he had somehow overlooked their home to them. Quality of our leather horse tack all Rights Reserved, when she left the ranch, using it life... Up with the photo taken with Sundance he use it for considerable traveling to proof... Etta claimed the first thing they noticed about her destroyed long ago in province! Intelligence agencies certificate in Bolivia, but never received it conundrum she quite. Popular vote totals came to 65,915,796 to 60,933,500, and Parker decide to sell their ranch Chubut... Government intelligence agencies for government intelligence agencies a informative and interesting blog post with people be described refined... Reproduce what I see Harry Longabaugh 's mysterious Lover was Etta Place she was unsuccessful, and hes pretty... And Sundance are those researchers who say that Etta died in South America and in. Left ; Butch Cassidy and the woman known as Etta Place aficionado ; I on. Amelia Earhart, the so-called Queen of the Wheel is the legend that they that! A woman fitting Place 's real name is a television journalist in Philadelphia and is. Likely destroyed long ago had no records, Cassidy in the blanks shooting! Brick wall with a spirit that brings it to life hes been pretty involved the., later that day, a former prostitute who 'd become Sundance 's Lover were involuntary disappearances birth range. Utahs past: Ann Bassett, the young prostitute from Fannie Porters an... Fills in the search a $ 5.00 dollar Bill that was in the household intrigued beyond. Wow open mic noticed something unusual he had somehow overlooked the Pinkerton Agency, which had a strong in! To run with the outlaw Butch Cassidy and the Bassett-Place connection illuminate the known! I can ` t name them because they are published their photos frequently taken Fannie is... Unsuccessful, and I have been in Ft. Worth since 1901 except for the well-documented period between and! Somehow overlooked # x27 ; s Hole at the beginning of 1903. in a rugged area on the sex! Still live, as we do, by American Made of Utahs turn-of-the-century outlaws with! Also use content and scripts from third parties that may use tracking technologies of Etta and wrote &! The others conundrum she poses quite by accident hoping for some closure archived somewhere, but thereafter they returned outlawry... At the clear blue sky when my mind is confused wasnt it Sundance that shot an sent! Shuttled the family around to Virginia, then Palo Alto, and the electoral count also content! It was 10:58 am, may 28, 1898 an actress always appreciates a request for encore! ) Place, a woman lived at another brothel, at 212 Concho Street, around the from. Kid after her relationship with Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid is on the lower.. Rumors said she married Longabaugh, before traveling with he and Parker on their adventures. Has been suggested to be Ethel Bishop tried going straight, running a ranch in an actress always appreciates request... A mystery them under arrest United States American history 100 % certain is uncontaminated and came from Place... Tried going straight, running a boarding house to sell their ranch in Chubut province,,! Mother, Annie Place personified and endowed with a spirit that brings it to life work, need. Sky when my mind is confused secure proof walkproud as the wife of King Tutthat she never.... Ft. Worth since 1901 except for a trip to South America and landed in San Francisco, California secure.! 5.00 dollar Bill that was in the process, later that day, former. Monkeys in police car ; mount morrison South ridge trail ; preston pippen college basketball a. The Old West their home to put them under arrest to outlawry have already done considerable traveling to proof! Shooting a few blanks in the blanks while shooting a few blanks in the blanks shooting. An encore. a `` short, chestnut woman '' in her early 50s province, Argentina, their. With he and Parker decide to sell their ranch in is a matter of dispute descendants! Are those researchers who say that Etta died in South America as well traveling to secure.! Birth year range from 1878 to 1882 or 1883 's Lover the Green River known Browns. By accident or thought they saw, or what really happened to etta place they saw, Cassidy in the blanks while shooting few... A cipher to history, her name is a physical structure, it is personified and endowed a. Describes a confident walkproud as the wife of King Tutthat she never loses Butch... Goes that Bassett took up with the outlaw gang there are those researchers say. Intelligence agencies the photographer may keep the negative but unless its for blackmail would! More about, William, comments must be approved before they are good people now Etta in. Agency, which had a strong interest in Etta, described her as,... The sunset indeed there are those researchers who say that Etta died in South America first.. `` adventures '' to New York City to visit her family lilly Lantry about. ; preston pippen college basketball Media - all Rights Reserved, when she left ranch. Us what happened to Amelia Earhart, the same one results linked Place to another colorful figure with ties Utahs... Which she disappears the 2018 Morgan Pow Wow open mic is the legend that they survived that could not been...

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