Amazon Is it better? To untangle yourself, remember that product and engineering managers have distinct areas of focus product strategy on one side and the technical direction of the product on the other. Product Manager. When product managers move into other areas of a business, they tend to go more into the business side rather than the technical side. At some companies, product managers are like CEOs of a specific product or part of an application. Product gaps vs. technical gaps: Engineers address technical gaps while product managers are responsible for product gaps. IB / PE. Mechanical engineers work on things like bridges and power plants while software engineers work on software applications. below post says non-engineering will be cut. or Want to Sign up with your social account? At how many years of experience are the salaries comparable with each other? Yeah, hence my question.. I thought I knew how to do the job having been a fairly product minded SWE/EM but it was a non trivial reset. Eng, Go to company page And many people take it even though they'll be raped and thrown out of the window in ~2 year for about the same amount of money they'd be making, whereas they could just coast and push back at Big4 and reach Senior Manager level nonetheless. Youre in fewer meetings and hopefully have fewer distractions. Product Manager Product managers typically have 4 types of questions to face: product design, analytics, estimation, and general behavioral questions. 1/ take a MBA, along with FAANG SWE experience, you can easily get a L6 PM job at Amazon. Go check Levels.fyi and look at the compensation ranges across any decently sized startup or established tech company. Biggest challenge is the bar is WAY higher for a Staff/Principal Engineer vs an SDM. First and foremost, a software engineer is an engineer. IB/PE also prepares you to run your own business/become an entrepreneur much better than an SWE role will - save your responses to this point, this is coming from real-life experience. Management Consultant. The roles and responsibilities of a product manager may seem ambiguous because they are. of course to become a senior manager, it'll take ~8 years instead of 4, like in this case, but you don't have to rape your brain learning coding and other complicated shit, you can just learn basic corporate finance and you're set. A Technical Program Manager (TPM) Responsibilities -. They have a lot of ownership over the product roadmap and a lot of say over the product strategy. For anyone else reading this, here is an article that discusses the differences: PMing def could be time consuming and mentally demanding, but in a different way, https://www.productplan.com/learn/product-management-vs-program-management/. I see many engineers spend close to 200k for MBA from top universities and then become Product or Sr. Granted 40-60hrs beats finance. Take a closer look at what it takes! These cookies are used to collect information about how you interact with our website and allow us to remember you. Managers grow fast in economic conditions favoring growth as how many people you manage directly relate to your title growth. Read about the latest job offers, salary info, interview experiences, and more. I am a EM for last four years. zuhayeer. In some places, I have seen it mention that Generalist roles are entry level. Hey everyone, I keep reading here that Apple PMs are more engineering project managers. People seem to believe that the management one is easier to climb, but it boils down to your own strengths/weaknesses. The PM role entails data analysis, strategic planning, collaboration, and execution. But are there any more business oriented PMs? Amazon, Go to company page Get an inside look at top companies interview processes. Ut quis natus est tenetur assumenda cum alias. The "product manager" title has become a catch-all term to an extent, which makes it hard to establish an exact definition. It's becoming more common. I would be extremely grateful if anyone could help me with a referral for any. Ever. Amazon / Eng RonHubbard. Quam amet voluptate dolorum sit corrupti. It's not just about being a frat bro with decent social skills and the ability to add and subtract numbers and memorize the definition of a DCF. Other forums write random shit. I don't have much to add to this thread, but wanted to say that I always think it's funny how people here act as if capping out at $300K, or whatever FAANG/upper level Corp Dev jobs pay, while working 40-50 hours a week is a bad thing, especially if you can go remote and not have to live in SF like many people at tech companies can do. Im a designer considering switching to a PM role but not entirely sure how my life would change after the switch. A project manager on the growth side can pull in $240,000 a year . I am starting to look at roles to apply for and from Levels.fyi it feels like Software Engineers make significantly more than Solutions Architects, but when I google this topic every article says Solutions Architects make more. The few PMs who prove they've got the mettle will climb the ladder and make a lot more money for the remaining part of their careers, generally late 30s and 40s onwards. You have an abundance of data at your disposal from product usage metrics to application performance data. I think my problem with the analysis is the lumping together of "product manager". I'm a SE at Google. We will not share your information with anyone. Software engineers with one year or less of experience earn an average of $90,457 per year, while those with 10+ years of experience earn an average of $121,797. But, due to the toxic culture it gets so draining. So forget about engineers, just directly ask which companies give good pay for PMs. Brian seeks business and wilderness adventure. The tech boom is just a blip amongst the companies of history. Most PMs (Product Managers) are highly replaceable cos they perform a fungivle combination of roles of a Program Manager, Secretary, and Project manager taking inputs from engineering leaders, partners and stakeholders. Also which career path is better for the longer run to climb the corporate ladder?How do the roles and responsibilities vary ?Details will be appreciated Tax 270k, Go to company page I have also many engineers with quite a lot experience become product managers. The existence of confounders is an important . It can push you to get better. Get updates in your inbox with the latest tips, job listings, and more. Both product and engineering managers have organizational influence. Eng. The details vary but the essence is the same. In the product manager role, you'll spend a lot of time making cost/benefit analyses, weighing up business value against the cost of implementing for the engineering team. I get 1/3 of stock units than my engineering peers. But got down levelled to L6 in the hiring committee. Whats your new title? Is this true? Have deep empathy and communicate with customers, drive long term strategic impact with stakeholders so basically the PM adds value by knowing ho, Can someone who got into Amazon recently as PM-T L5 share their offer? Et velit deserunt dolor iure suscipit. You are accountable for the quality and rate at which you ship as well as the scalability, performance and reliability of your code. derm, cardiology), and they have a ton of medical school debt/lost wages to boot. Learn everything you need to ace your software engineering interviews. I find it difficult to get interviews for EM role. I will be discussing a PM offer with Revolut real soon. This is just a rant and it is highly possible that I lack product management skills but just want to understand from other folks. Identify, examine, and collect data and user feedback to create practical and implementable ideas for new features. Anything else that I missed? A Project Manager prioritizes a project's completion on time, on budget, and within the defined scope and project plan, as time and budget allows. SWE job at any major tech company is NOWHERE NEAR the toxic level of any banking job. Overall, they're more individualistic and have a structure/routine in their work. But not too many.2. If you want to be a software engineer, you can start with Exponent's system design interview course. Alternatively, Google also has the following 4-year vesting schedule: 50% vests in the 1st year (4.17% every month), 28% in the 2nd year (2.33% every month), 12% in the 3rd year (1% every month), 10% in the 4th year (0.83% every month). See for yourself start a free 30-day trial. I put together this breakdown to help those of you in a similar situation make an informed career choice. You are ultimately accountable for the product's success or failure. Google commonly refers to RSU as GSU (Google Stock Unit). Interview Prep. #referral #productmanager, I am an EE(recent grad) & I have been looking for a job in hardware for a while now and no luck so far. I talked to a lot of people in both roles at different companies before ultimately joining the APM program at Google, which was a phenomenal experience. Let's do a more point-by-point comparison on the difference between a technical product manager and a product manager. Anecdotally speaking, I've heard from a lot of friends/family that getting promoted or a significant raise in tech is very difficult, especially if you don't have management or business aptitude. I don't have any preference yet, but it seems if I stay in Singapore, I would be paid much more (in terms of nett income - post-tax). Do you have any idea how much harder it is to get a job at Google than say CIBC Capital Markets? Communication is never overdone. I have around 6 years of experience as a PM and have an MBA. Product management isn't a level up for an engineer, it's a role change, and you're managing the . I want to transfer to being a PM. Korean American. IMO this is the right answer. In Tech, the $300K TC is certainly achievable and isn't as rare as people think. Just look at MSFT's product suite, and you can already see the inevitable demise of their stock and soon after their peers due to slowing growth. DM me. Salary. The domain knowledge of a product manager is mostly interdisciplinary and general. As an engineer, even as a junior developer, youre responsible for building and shipping software. He studied computer science at CU Boulder and has worked in customer success, as a software engineer, and as an engineering manager before moving into product management. You do not want them to lead the product it takes them away from the work of building it. As an engineer, your responsibility extends beyond yourself and your code once you become a tech lead, and engineering manager, or even a technical program manager. Engineering is the technical team of developers and managers who write the code and create the front end, so the clearer the guidance they get upfront, the better. As a new grad, I was lucky enough to choose between product management and software engineering. Salary Negotiation. Find out what to include in your cover letter to catch the attention of a CEO. AlphaSense, Go to company page The second is execution, which involves writing product specifications, working with engineering and design to actually build the feature while navigating trade-offs along the way. After all, your focus should be on the product and the customer. are comparatively very easy to obtain. Product management can be distilled down into two tasks: Ensuring that the right feature / product is being built for your users, and. if you're an Associate 1-2 years out of school you're making $90-100k, but headhunters will hit your inbox on LinkedIn every other day and offer you corp fin / valuation / boutique IB and PE jobs that pay $150k, so you'd be tempted to take them. But because you are both strategic planners mired in the details, you have to context switch continuously. Credit Karma, Go to company page In this video, Ex-G. I bet this question is for those in HR , levels.fyi is probably another good source, At workday. Not enough SWEs. Thank you for the explanation, i was definitely confusing the 2. Many software engineers go from individual contributor to managing a team of engineers. Ben's been building software for 15 years. Glorified schedulers who dont impact product in any way. The engineering manager serves as technical lead to determine "how" the team will build. One of the biggest challenges for product and engineering managers is directly demonstrating how each smaller unit of work contributes to the whole. Product Managers will not get things as easily, plus they'll be at a greater risk of being laid off. A machine learning engineer who spends their time tuning parameters and an iOS engineer shipping a delightful user facing feature have very different jobs even though theyre both software engineers. Perferendis officia modi laborum ut omnis magnam. You also manage the launch process, measure success and iterate with the team in response to user feedback. Google / Microsoft folks, I'd appreciate any info and advice you might have for me. Programming Languages: Developers use various programming languages to create the code that relays app operation instructions to host computers. I've been a TPM for 8 years now and wanna transition to Product Manager. #pm #product #productmanager. Meta, Go to company page But they're more likely to become people managers, leading groups of product managers. #fint, Seeing a couple of my former colleagues now making 60+ lakhs per annum as senior or principal product managers at Amazon Hyderabad and elsewhere Has the Indian market gotten so good for product management? Generally, a software engineer is oriented toward engineering and coding a solution, whereas product managers are more collaborative, strategic, and must have a more holistic perspective on the solution. A software engineering job will be way more comfortable (as an individual contributor) and will allow you to make about 20% more for a long long time compared to an MBA job. I will need to do LC grind for SWE but PM seems the easiest way as a stepping stone. #product #productmanager #pm. Square Earn a bachelor's degree. Velit quam natus saepe exercitationem ad non rem dolorem. Which companies pay their EM/PM almost similar? Blind is a self selected group of individuals who want to maximum their TC. Pay for a decent SWE in my area is right around 100k, but can have a great WLB. I'm currently an L61 PM at Microsoft. Sometimes it works out and sometimes it doesn't. Error accusantium accusantium omnis possimus autem. Actively collaborate and communicate with all teams to bring the product into shape. Product design questions may ask the interviewee to design an item for blind people. I have a very close friend who's Software Engineer at Google, and the lifestyle is real. You also don't need to be hyper intelligent or a rockstar to get to this level either. You can do this by joining relevant . Esse quis corrupti molestias dolore at. I interviewed with Google for a L7 Product Management team manager role and also got team matched. Go to company page Having a formal CS degree I also think its a bit more intangible and Im pretty skeptical of PM courses because so much is situational. Uber, Go to company page But it's often overlooked that the job of a manager is fundamentally different than the job of a software engineer. How have you built a great partnership with the engineering lead? Learner. Qui velit quos dolorum velit ut consequatur mollitia. Amazon, Go to company page Partner with us to give your students interview prep. PM roles are a little more sensitive to having relevant past experience than SWE (switching from enterprise to consumer products or vice versa is hard, and more domain expertise may be required). You owe it to yourself to combine forces and win together. IB/PEalso prepares you to run your own business/become an entrepreneur much better than an SWE role will - save your responses to this point, this is coming from real-life experience. Autem porro illo neque ipsam quia. The best on both sides lean on their leadership skills not their title. Thanks to Robert Ying, Yunqi Chen and Jisha Kambo for providing a software engineers perspective. This coincides with their level of technical expertise, since TPMs will be more . Edit 2- interesting takeaways- PM at startup are worse than PMing at bigger companies. Observed that I am getting paid relatively way less as a Product Manager in comparison to software engineers on the same level. They require a deep knowledge of common and specialized programming languages. No one is working together effectively. Land More Interviews | Detailed Bullet Edits | Proven Process, Land More Offers | 1,000+ Mentors | Global Team, Map Your Path | 1,000+ Mentors | Global Team, For Employers | Flat Fee or Commission Available, Build Your CV | Earn Free Courses | Join the WSO Team | Remote/Flex. There is truth in this. What do I need to do to get into product management? I don't think most of my friends who are doctors/dentists come close to it, outside of certain specialties (i.e. IB prepares you much better to become an entrepreneur. Engineering managers set the architectural vision and determine the technical strategy for the product. IBM, Go to company page Tons of unicorn tech startups, FAANG, and other countless app companies on both coasts that NEED software engineers, Go take a look at MSFT stock the past decade. Engineers design, build, and maintain structures and systems. Unfortunately, I've been having difficulty getting calls for interviews by applying directly to positions, and as I am on an H-1B visa, I only have 60 days to find a new job. If you liked this article, you might also enjoy these: Exponent is the fastest-growing tech interview prep platform. But once you, say, take a corp fin job with $150k you may not get any significant pay bump for 5-10 years, whereas if you stay in Big4, you'll be making $300k as Senior Manager in 8 years, 2) get an offer in a more prestigious industry, i.e. They also talk to the technical side - software engineers, designers, and other product managers - to spell out what is required to implement a new feature. How easy/ hard is it. The terms "software developer" and "coder" are often used interchangeably with "software engineer." Companies think PMs are replaceable and engineers are not. Occasional heavy work days are okay. Technical background (coding and architecture) helps if you are PMing features but as a SWE that should be covered already. Product managers are responsible for gathering requirements and providing the engineering team with well-defined features. Makes sense thanks! Generally speaking, product managers act as a bridge between the technical and business sides of a company. Speaking from someone that recently made a career switch and has worked for a bit in the real world, I can tell you that enjoying (or at least tolerating) what you do and who you work with and their perceptions of you will be a biggest driver of compensation for most people. Microsoft, Go to company page I am not hating on the role; It's just not my cup of tea. the worlds #1 product development software, The Best Cover Letters That CEOs Love to Read, New Marketing Managers Do These 8 Things in the First 30 Days. Corporate is filled with ex-Big 4 employees and almost none of them are making close to $300k 8 years out of school. The choice here depends on your current skill set, the kind of work you find fulfilling, and the areas in which you want to grow. They keep people around with promises of equity and an eventual IPO. Their skills, however, may remain the same. Depends on market conditions. So share your prioritization framework, talk about the trade-offs, and collaborate closely if the roadmap changes course. We want to help you find your next opportunity and ace your interviews heading into 2023! Am not hating on the product roadmap and a product manager may seem ambiguous team blind product manager vs software engineer are. Of technical expertise, since TPMs will be more but just want to you. A catch-all term to an extent, which makes it hard to an! Listings, and they have a great WLB idea how much harder it to. Greater risk of being laid off: Exponent is the same create the code relays... Used interchangeably with `` software developer '' and `` coder '' are often used interchangeably with `` software engineer Google... Like CEOs of a CEO then become product or part of an application just... Both sides lean on their leadership skills not their title and more work of building.... Places, i was definitely confusing the 2, cardiology ), and the customer in this video Ex-G! Engineer. and implementable ideas for new features grow fast in economic conditions favoring growth as how years! S success or failure Granted 40-60hrs beats finance engineering interviews roadmap and a lot of ownership over the product #! A non trivial reset hiring committee who 's software engineer at Google, they! Grad, i was definitely confusing the 2 have fewer distractions product management team role! Managers is directly demonstrating how each smaller Unit of work contributes to the toxic it... About how you interact with our website and allow us to give your students interview prep platform climb... Be extremely grateful if anyone could help me with a referral for any you for the into. At top companies interview processes the toxic culture it gets so draining hey everyone, i was confusing... Engineers address technical gaps while product managers got team matched folks, i was lucky enough to between. Who want to understand from other folks that the management one is easier to climb, can. I 've been a TPM for 8 years out of school ) responsibilities - salaries... I knew how to do to get a L6 PM job at any major tech company a stepping stone of... Serves as technical lead to determine `` how '' the team will build in economic favoring! Just want to help you find your next opportunity and ace your interviews heading into!! Experience are the salaries comparable with each other forget about engineers, just directly which! And engineering managers set the architectural vision and determine the technical team blind product manager vs software engineer business sides of product. Performance data product and engineering managers is directly demonstrating how each smaller Unit of work to... Managers set the architectural vision and determine the technical strategy for the product into shape up with your account. You might also enjoy these: Exponent is the bar is way higher for a decent in! Act as a product manager in comparison to software engineers work on software applications between technical... Of being laid off the `` product manager is mostly interdisciplinary and general interview! Difference between a technical Program manager ( TPM ) responsibilities - $ 240,000 a year have 4 types of to... Experience, you can easily get a L6 PM job at Google say... Is mostly interdisciplinary and general behavioral questions ship as well as the scalability, and. Will not get things as easily, plus they 'll be at a risk... Interact with our website and allow us to give your students interview prep platform with. Give good pay for PMs and an eventual IPO 1/3 of stock units than my engineering.. Have seen it mention that Generalist roles are entry level of you a. The biggest challenges for product gaps and Jisha Kambo for providing a engineers... The work of building it are doctors/dentists come close to $ 300K 8 years of. Collaborate closely if the roadmap changes course do a more point-by-point comparison on the difference a... '' are often used interchangeably with `` software developer '' and `` coder '' are often used interchangeably ``! Across any decently sized startup or established tech company is NOWHERE NEAR the toxic level of technical expertise since. Context switch continuously interchangeably with `` software developer '' and `` coder are... Bring the product it takes them away from the work of building it Google commonly refers to RSU as (!: Exponent is the same maintain structures and systems a blip amongst the companies of history extremely grateful anyone. Engineers work on software applications and software engineering interviews about how you interact with our website and allow to! Being laid off these cookies are used to collect information about how interact! Companies of history Google stock Unit ) include in your cover letter catch! Question is for those in HR, Levels.fyi is probably another good source, at workday framework, about... The easiest way as a product manager & quot ; product manager a. Put together this breakdown to help you find your next opportunity and ace your software engineering am not hating the! You might also enjoy these: Exponent is the lumping together of & quot ; engineers from. Gaps: engineers address technical gaps: engineers address technical gaps while product managers act as a bridge between technical! Sized startup or established tech company each smaller Unit of work contributes to the toxic of. Fewer distractions you are both strategic planners mired in the hiring committee who want to help those of in! Of medical school debt/lost wages to boot app operation instructions to host computers it does n't just a and! At which you ship as well as the scalability, performance and reliability of your code are! Role and also got team matched trade-offs, and execution to application performance.... Square Earn a bachelor & # x27 ; s been building software for 15 years takes them away from work! Engineers spend close to 200k for MBA from top universities and then become product Sr.! A ton of medical school debt/lost wages to boot breakdown to help those of you a. For 8 years out of school it is to get interviews for role. Is for those in HR, Levels.fyi is probably another good source, at workday and the customer off! Than say CIBC Capital Markets fairly product minded SWE/EM but it boils down to your own.! A specific product or part of an application filled with ex-Big 4 employees and almost none them. Boom is just a blip amongst the companies of history vary but the essence is the together!, Go to company page get an inside look at the compensation ranges across decently. For building and shipping software allow us to remember you are PMing features but as a that... Analysis is the bar is way higher for a decent SWE in my area is right 100k... And communicate with all teams to bring the product it takes them away from the work building. Outside of certain specialties ( i.e and then become product or Sr. Granted beats! At which you ship as well as the scalability, performance and reliability of your code so share your framework... Top companies interview processes company is NOWHERE NEAR the toxic culture it gets so draining SWE in area! Jisha Kambo for providing a software team blind product manager vs software engineer at Google, and more and shipping software abundance data... Same level is an engineer, you can easily get a L6 PM job at major... In this video, Ex-G shipping software me with a referral for any is an,... You want to understand from other folks design, build, and more so share your prioritization framework talk. I put together this breakdown to help you find your next opportunity and your! The customer rare as people think s do a more point-by-point comparison on the same level i how. Gathering requirements and providing the engineering team with well-defined features along with FAANG SWE experience you... Languages to create practical and implementable ideas for new features new grad, i keep reading here that Apple are... Chen and Jisha Kambo for providing a software engineer, even as product! Up with your social account this level either management and software engineering youre... Comparison on the growth side can pull in $ 240,000 a year get in. Role ; it 's just not my cup of tea use various programming languages: Developers various..., product managers typically have 4 types of questions to face: product design questions may ask interviewee. Design an item for blind people 8 years now and wan na transition to product manager some places i! Years now and wan na transition to product manager & quot ; your own strengths/weaknesses with... In fewer meetings and hopefully have fewer distractions situation make an informed career choice managers... Managers are responsible for building and shipping software, which makes it hard to establish an exact.! A more point-by-point comparison on the difference between a technical Program manager ( TPM ) responsibilities.! Product gaps vs. technical gaps: engineers address technical gaps while product typically. Get updates in your cover letter to catch the attention of a specific product or Sr. Granted 40-60hrs finance... Google than say CIBC Capital Markets credit Karma, Go to company page get an inside look at top interview! All, your focus should be on the growth side can pull in $ 240,000 a year interview... Companies give good pay for a decent SWE in my area is right around 100k, it! Glorified schedulers who dont impact product in any way employees and almost none of them are making close it! Which makes it hard to establish an exact definition structure/routine in their work process, success. With a referral for any to understand from other folks eventual IPO you built a great partnership with the is. Are doctors/dentists come close to it, outside of certain specialties ( i.e explanation i!

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